By a Thread

Christine Plastow: Marika, what’s your history with classical myth? 

Marika Brussel: My parents used to read myths to me as bedtime stories, and I always thought that was usual and that everybody had that but it’s apparently not true. I loved all the stories and I saw myself as all the characters when I was growing up. Then when I started dancing my mother was my first teacher, and she did a performance of Persephoneand I got to be Persephone and I realized when I was doing that dance that it really mirrored my parents’ divorce. So I thought, ‘these stories are still alive’ – I thought. even as a teenager. ‘oh, these stories still apply to me’. 

CP: What made you want to make a ballet based on the Odyssey?

MB: I didn’t really want to make a ballet based on the Odyssey, I wanted to make a ballet about Calypso. So I started making a ballet about Calypso, and when I finished it I wasn’t satisfied that I had done enough with the story. Then I started doing other pieces of the story without realizing that they’re all part of the Odyssey, even though I had read the Odyssey, I just didn’t put it together. Once I realized that that’s what I was doing, I got excited about it and I was like, now I can look at the journey of this character. But the character was a man, and I was less interested in that story, so then I had to decide whose story it was going to be. 

CP: By a Thread is closely focused on Penelope. How do you interpret Penelope’s character? What’s your version of her story?

MB: I was really put off by the fact that the most important thing about her in the book is that she’s faithful, and that she’s faithfully waiting for him while he’s certainly not doing any of those things. Because she’s described as being intelligent, I thought, well, there’s no way she’s just waiting and weaving – she’s got to be doing something else. I thought of weaving as a metaphor, so she’s weaving different stories for herself during this time. In the ballet I think what she’s doing is reclaiming – or claiming for the first time – power, because when she’s left no one else is taking over, she’s taking over. I think she’s learning how to do that, and she’s learning how to work through grief and using all of her emotions in a positive way to be the powerful queen that we see in my story.

Michaela Marrable as Penelope and Ryan Upton as Odysseus.

CP: Which parts of the original myth appeal to you the most? Which parts did you decide to leave out or change?

MB: I left out a lot. I changed what happens at the end. In some ways Odysseus could be off doing all the things we see him do in the book, but we don’t see that in my story. I added what happens before he goes off - I added the goodbye, which I think is important. If he’s sitting on a shore in the beginning of the book weeping, what is he weeping about? Is it that he misses her? What does he miss? I wanted to show that what he’s left is important to him, and what he’s left is a person and not just an idea of home. It also doesn’t necessarily take place in the past - I want the story to be contemporary and relevant and so I was looking at it as if Penelope is a military wife, so she knows he’s going to leave because he always leaves. Military wives, I think, experience what Penelope experienced, which is like grief over and over and over - he’s leaving, is he going to be killed? Am I going to get a telegram? Am I going to get a phone call? Is someone going to be at my door? I’ve changed that to make it more contemporary. And then the maids are not maids, they’re her friends, so they’re more equals. They don’t die either - she gives them power and so they come forward with her.

CP: Michaela, Mayuko and Ryan, how much did you know about the story of the Odyssey before starting this project?

Michaela Marrable: Not much at all. I think I had a very rudimentary knowledge of the Odyssey. But I’m happy that I learnt about it for this ballet, because I felt that I could go into it without any preconceived notions of oh, it’s all about the man and the power of man. 

Mayuko Suzuki:  I knew the name: I knew the Odyssey and Odysseus and Athena but that’s it. I didn’t know about the story.

Ryan Upton: I actually studied A-Level Ancient History. I’ve always been obsessed with mythology and those kinds of stories. So I’d read the Odyssey as part of that. I can’t remember which translation I read. I knew quite a lot about it back then - I’d forgotten so many details but I knew the general gist of it. I gripped onto random little bits, like I remembered the Cyclops really well, but then I’d completely forgotten about Calypso. So I had a general idea, but I definitely didn’t know about the finer details.

CP: What were your impressions of the story when you first encountered it?

RU: I’ve always had a fascination with women in mythology and ancient history. Because it was all about a man, I think I read it, but I was a little bit like, move on, give me Persephone, give me something else. I didn’t necessarily have a huge impression of it, and I think my impression was just that Odysseus was a bit of a knob, and that was it. I mean, I loved all the trials and tribulations, and I remember I was fascinated with the bits I probably wasn’t meant to be fascinated with in the story – I loved the sirens, I loved him meeting his mum in the underworld, I loved the Cyclops for the fantasy element. But yeah, my general impression was just that it was a story about men.

MM: I do wish that there was more in the original story about Penelope, obviously. I am hungry for all the texts about her. I think that there is a lot of underlying meaning in it, and I’m appreciative that Marika’s reading between the lines and coming up with a very powerful character in this story. Obviously it’s been passed down for generations and ages, but I think it means something to everyone. That means something special to me with my character.

MS: I tried to read the translation in Japanese and I did finish it. At first I actually heard everything from Marika - it was coming from her, what she read and what she wanted to put into a dance. I thought, it’s such a complicated and long story and it’s also really difficult for me to understand - I mean, all the goddesses and mortals, because I’ve never really read anything about Greek mythology. So it was fun for me to try and understand what Marika wanted, and put it together. But at the same time, it was a little bit hard.

Penelope resists the suitors.

CP: Marika, do you often adapt existing myths and stories for your ballets?

MB: Yes, that’s a lot of what I do. I did make a ballet about Pandora, very broadly based on her. My idea of Pandora is that all of what the story considers sins or the evils of the world are actually just different parts of us, and so until she recognizes all the different things we can be, she’s put off by them. She thinks that it’s horrible, but once she sees them as part of herself, she can accept it and then things are better. That was all women in that ballet. I just recently made a ballet based on a novel that my friend wrote about immigration in the 1920s. I’m most interested in adapting stories.

CP: Would you say you have a consistent approach to using source material or do you change your approach?

MB: I think the approach is somewhat similar. I’m mainly interested in women being at the front of the story, and that’s not always true of the original text that I use. So I’m interested in in changing the perception of the story, because whatever we’re looking at makes that story the most important. I think it’s time that we tell new stories, and we can look at these old stories and shift them, so that’s what I try to do.

CP: How would you describe your approach to storytelling in your choreography?

MB: I used to be a writer, and I was part of the same writing group for 20 years. The best thing I ever did with telling a story in a ballet was I had my writing group come to a rehearsal. They didn’t know anything about dance, and I said to them, does the story make sense? If this was a written story, would it make sense? I feel like I’ve kind of done that with you also, asking your advice and asking you to come in and saying ‘do you see the story in this?’ I also try to outline what I’ve done - the book I just used for the other ballet, I read it many times, but then when I looked at the ballet, I had to outline what I actually had and not the original story. So does this story make sense?

CP: As you mentioned me, what made you want to work with an academic? 

MB: I don’t want the story to be just coming from me. It’s really important to me that people who know more about the original story than I do believe my story. That’s why I sought out someone who had a lot more knowledge than I do. Originally I came to you through Emma Bridges, because I was interested in Penelope as a military wife and she had written a book about that, and then she wrote back to me and recommended that I talk to you. I felt like your experience in theatre also just made it a really perfect friendship, in a way, because you understood what I was trying to do - to take something from one world and bring it into another world.

MM: I’m really happy to have your input – getting to have people who are so knowledgeable on it and have such a passion for it, so that passion translates to our dance. Obviously, as dancers, we have such a passion for what we do, and it means a lot when someone’s coming into the studio who it also means a lot to, but maybe in a different way. When you combine those two aspects of it, it makes the studio such a nurturing and beautiful environment. I feel especially with my solo, she’s in a lot of despair and I feel like a lot of weight is now being placed on her shoulders. She’s really trying to come into her own. And those are emotions that sometimes can be a bit scary to do in the studio, to do it full out. I think sometimes as dancers, we maybe reserve it for the stage because that’s the big moment, but I found I’ve been comfortable enough in the studio to explore those emotions and really work on that. And that’s a really rare experience. So I’ve been really, really grateful for this time.

CP: How have the dancers responded to working with the myth? 

MB: I think the dancers are really excited about working with a story, first of all, because a lot of contemporary ballet doesn’t have a story. It’s very abstract. Ballet dancers are brought up to want to do stories, but the classical stories that have nothing to do with us, like Giselle and Sleeping Beauty and stories where the women are saved. In particular I feel like the women in this piece have been excited to be empowered by the story. I do feel a little bit bad for the men - I was like, you guys are just kind of tools, you’re just a prop. 

Ryan Upton, Mayuko Suzuki and Marika Brussel in rehearsal.

CP: Ryan, Michaela, Mayuko: what’s your take on your characters?

RU: It’s been really beautiful, especially for the climate of the world at the minute. Marika referenced a book by Jonathan Shay, Odysseus in America, and from the get-go she wanted Odysseus to be a representation of PTSD and veterans and war. It made me look at a lot of the awful stereotypes of men in society, like not crying, not showing anything. So now my entire opinion about Odysseus has changed so much. I think he can be used as a really interesting vehicle for how man can emote and have trauma but how differently they process and show that, as society has caged them into not necessarily being allowed to do so. I think he’s very complicated, and the innate distrust that he has in everyone around him is actually really sad. It feels like he’s surrounded by all these friends, his men, but it’s almost like they’re not really there. There’s no actual support he can find from anyone around him. I find his character quite sad and quite lonely. And I think he’s very traumatised. He’s definitely still flawed in loads of ways, but I’ve found the whole process of delving into it quite sad.

MM: I’m most interested in Penelope’s character progression. In the beginning, my interpretation of Penelope is she is slightly reliant on Odysseus, because of the way that she’s been put in her place, as you can tell from the symbolism of the beginning of the ballet. We’re all walking within this very contained box. She knows that she must abide within these lines. She’s smart in the sense that if she is using her full mental capacity, she won’t make it, so she has to trick people into believing that she’s going to take their restrictions and stay within them. But I think that she is in love with Odysseus. I know in the book it’s an arranged marriage, but I think they have a similar brain. I want to show, especially at the beginning, that she resonates with him in a way that other people wouldn’t, and so she gets why he has to go but she’s still absolutely terrified when he does. And when he’s gone, I feel like she’s finally able to take that piece of power within her and raise it to the surface. She still has to be manipulative in the sense that she has to trick the suitors, she’s kind of leading them on a little bit and making sure that they don’t fully overpower her. When Odysseus comes back, she’s a little bit scared of how this is going to affect her position. Not only is it a shock to her that he comes back - even though she always has hope - but it’s a shock that she’s a completely different human and he’s completely different human and they find themselves almost reintroduced. I really like that part of the story because it’s like, your souls are still tied, but you’re different people now. So you have to reconnect. She’s never going to be the same as before he left.

MS: I think Athena is really strong. She’s really smart, intelligent. She’s confident, and Odysseus is her favourite. So I want to show that I’m protective of him, but at the same time I want him to perform well - I want him to do whatever I want him to do. So when he’s going to the war, I do my best to support him, but when he doesn’t do whatever I want him to do, I get really angry, I get really mad. 

CP: How do you express your interpretation in performance?

RU: Because I’ve done it so much within my career, I find it quite natural to be the ‘man’ on stage, like show physicality and athleticism, but I think what’s so beautiful about this is that there’s loads of really tender, softer movement vocabulary. There’s a sense that he’s a bit nervous and scared at times, and then so easily swayed by somebody else. Not as much with Penelope, but definitely with Athena and with Calypso, it’s like I’m just a plaything that’s being pulled in different directions. Surrendering the natural instinct as a male-presenting performer to be the ‘man’ on stage and eat up the space has been really interesting as a dancer. Especially with classical partnering and how classical dance is formulated, it’s very much the case that I put someone in positions and then they hold them. It’s been a really interesting thing to play with, letting other people eat space and being much more influenced by the bodies around me. I definitely see that with Calypso. Going into it at the very start, I think the relationship with Calypso was the most confusing thing to me, whereas now I’m starting to really understand that she’s a crutch, but she’s also a distraction. But we’re both getting something out of it, but I think what we’re getting out of it is different – for Odysseus it’s much more of a distraction, a healing thing. And for her she’s getting excited about potentially having this partnership.

MM: At first I tried to focus a lot on eye contact. At the beginning, in the first step that she does her head is bowed - it’s a way of looking down, knowing her place. When she looks at Odysseus, she does love him, so she tries to look but she knows that she can’t maintain that contact. I’m trying to show that she doesn’t feel fully within her power to look him in the eyes and show him exactly who she is. In the middle when she’s angry and upset that he’s gone, she’s now taking everything on, she’s upset at the suitors – she’s coming to feminine rage. And so I’m trying to stare down the audience, almost in a sense of ‘don’t mess with what we have’ - it’s not specifically about the audience, but I am just trying to maintain that contact there. Then towards the end when Odysseus comes back, when he first enters the stage, I just keep the eye contact the entire time. There’s a full 16 counts where we’re just standing there looking at each other, and this time I’m looking at him in his eyes. I think she’s trying to fully recognise who he is now. So she’s still looking at him, still trying to discern what’s going on. So, yeah, eye contact’s a really big thing.

MS:  Marika’s movement helps me so much. We meet Athena and Penelope and Calypso, and the other female leads have such a different quality of movement. My movement is really strong and almost angular - there’s lots of hands and elbows and it’s really sharp. There are a few times that I do similar stuff as the other cast members, but that’s when Athena is disguised as other people. For the rest of the time, I’m really different. I really like the sharpness of the movement. I also try to use my eyes, that’s very important for me. When I see something or someone, you can tell whether I’m actually acknowledging them or not.

Odysseus and Calypso (Tamara Hinson) dance as Athena looks on.

CP: It seems to me from watching rehearsals that, while Marika brings a certain vision to the story, it’s a collaborative process of storytelling among all of you, especially the main characters. Does that feel true to you?

MM: Absolutely. My first interaction with Marika was a workshop and she brought out a few samples of the Odysseyand a few poems, and one was something about this woman representing a lion. I did this movement with my arms where it’s like surrounding my whole head, and that’s the beginning of my solo as Penelope now. I have appreciated that I’ve been able to have a voice in the studio and that means a lot to me. It’s encouraged me to continue to find out more about Penelope and to research her depth of character, because I feel able to collaborate not only in the steps but also in characterisation. I feel really heard and seen when I do that. There’s a lot of bits where I’m like, oh, I don’t know if at this moment  she would actually reach for him, I think she would just stay still. I love that interaction, I love being part of that.

RU: Marika has a really fantastic way of getting the best out of her dancers, in terms of both movement vocabulary and also artistic interpretation. Particularly with the three principals in this, Mayuko, Michaela, and myself, we’re all so willing to go into the acting and the expression side of it. It’s been really beautiful to be able to try different things and actually have a conversation with Marika about it instead of her saying, I want it like this.  She also does it in a way that you don’t fully realise how invested you’re getting into it because you have so much room to play and room to manoeuvre. It’s done in a way that’s structured, you’re not just being left to float and figure it out for yourself. I think it’s definitely given all of us, without realising it, much more ownership of the characters. So yeah, she’s very collaborative but in a very beautifully structured, guided way.

MS: I met Marika one year ago and I started working with her on both Athena and Calypso. Of course, she had her own interpretation for both characters with her movement. But when she saw me doing some arm or head movements, she also included that in the choreography. So I feel included, and I like how the movements become more natural to me as a result.

CP: How does it feel to retell such an old story for a modern audience?

RU: It feels really powerful. I touched on it before with the current climate of the world and war and the idea of PTSD, trauma, losing people you love, being torn between different things. I think that’s why mythology is so incredible, their lessons and values and morals that are so relevant now. It feels really beautiful. Particularly for me, getting to fuse two loves of my life, dance and ancient history and mythology, it’s just been really special. I’m very honoured and it feels exciting as well. I think telling stories is important, and I think people need it.

MM: Initially it felt quite intimidating, because it’s massive and it means a lot to different people. With this narration of the story, obviously it’s focused on Penelope and her character arc and her journey throughout Odysseus being away. I think that’s a fresher perspective, one that hasn’t been explored as much. I wanted to show her as a multifaceted character. I didn’t want it to be another damsel in distress, like oh no, he’s gone. I wanted her to have resentment. I wanted her to have longing. I wanted to have lust and greed, and anguish, and all of these very human emotions that aren’t often portrayed in female roles. I really wanted to do her justice. As humans, we are not one-dimensional, we have reactions that are sometimes ugly and I just wanted to be able to show that with her. So yeah, a bit intimidated but overall really, really excited.

MS: Because I didn’t know about the story before I started this working on this ballet, the more I get to know it the more interested I am in it. There’s no one answer to it how you read it or how you watch this ballet. You can interpret whatever you want. The ballet is from Penelope’s perspective, so it’s more focused on the female characters in the story, which I think is really interesting. And we collaborate with lots of other artists, all female, and it’s really cool to have a safe place for female artists to express how we feel and what we do.

MB: I do feel like ballet has to change and be more attuned to new audiences. I think it’s really important that we’re not just telling the same stories to the same old white people. I think it’s important to bring in people who don’t understand ballet necessarily, but gear it in a way that they feel something about it. I think it’s more about the emotion than about being pretty. I’ve worked with dancers who just want to be pretty, and that’s fine, but they’re probably not the dancer for me. I want to break people’s hearts. I do think having you collaborate on this has made it much richer and given it more layers. If this is a broader conversation about how bringing arts or bringing a different perspective into the classics matters, for me having the perspective of an academic and our conversations about theatre and fiction and all that makes it a much bigger experience for the for the viewer. It’s not just dance - now we can weave in all these other things, and I think that that’s the way to go.